Dappim 8 and 9 of Bechoros contain the famous and cryptic debates between Rabbi Yehoshua and the Elders of Athens. This Aggadah has riddles and verbal jousts that have been subject to many commentaries and interpretations over the ages. I have some observations on parts of these dialogues which are relevant in our modern times. Let us read selections of the text, and I will intersperse commentary.

“With regard to the gestation time of a snake, the Gemara relates that the Roman emperor said to Rabbi Yehoshua ben Ḥananya: In the case of a snake, after how long a period of gestation does it give birth? Rabbi Yehoshua ben Ḥananya said to him: After seven years. The emperor said to him: But the elders, i.e., the sages, of the school of Athens bred snakes and they gave birth after three years. Rabbi Yehoshua ben Ḥananya responded: Those snakes were already pregnant from beforehand for four years. The emperor asked: But they engaged in intercourse, and animals do so only in order to give birth, not when they are already pregnant. Rabbi Yehoshua responded: Snakes also engage in intercourse like people, i.e., they do not do so solely for reproduction.”

“The emperor said to him: But how can you disagree with the sages of Athens? Aren’t they wise? Rabbi Yehoshua ben Ḥananya responded: We are wiser than they. The emperor said: If you are wiser than they, then go defeat them in debate and bring them to me. Rabbi Yehoshua said to him: How many are there? The emperor answered: Sixty men.”

Commentary: The emperor takes the science of the Sages of Athens as dogma. They are smart; they must be right. Rabbi Yehoshua says, no, they are not. The emperor objects, “But they claim to have observed it with their own eyes!” Rabbi Yehoshua says their observations are subject to error. What is the error? So-called scientific observation is subject to unconscious and personal bias, like the snake which, like a human, can engage in intercourse not merely for procreation (in other words instinct or straight facts) but also desire. The sages believed they were seeing the truth but they are influenced by personal beliefs and fears, much as we find some famous modern scientific studies have become debunked when flaws were found in the study’s methodology. Sometimes the flaws are unintentional, and other times, plain fraud.

The story begins:

“Rabbi Yehoshua ben Ḥananya said to him: Construct a ship that has sixty rooms for me, and each room should have sixty mattresses [bistarkei] in it. The emperor constructed it for him. Rabbi Yehoshua then set out on the ship for Athens. When he arrived there, he entered a butcher shop and found a certain man, the butcher, flaying an animal. Rabbi Yehoshua said to him: Is your head for sale? The butcher said to him: Yes it is. Rabbi Yehoshua said to him: For how much is it being sold? The butcher said to him: For half a dinar. Rabbi Yehoshua gave him the money. After Rabbi Yehoshua paid the butcher, he said to him: Did I say to you that I wanted the head of the animal? I was referring to your head, and you must now keep your word and give me your head. Rabbi Yehoshua said to him: If you wish for me to let you be, go and show me the entrance to the school of the sages of Athens. The butcher said to him: I am afraid, as they kill anyone who shows its location to another. Rabbi Yehoshua said to him: Carry a bundle of reeds, and when you arrive there, stand it up like one who is resting, to mark the location. The butcher did this, and Rabbi Yehoshua successfully found the entrance.”

“Rabbi Yehoshua found guards stationed on the inside and guards stationed on the outside to ensure that no one could enter or exit. They also spread sand on the ground in the entranceway so that they could detect if anyone entered or left. If they saw footsteps that were entering they would kill the outer guards for allowing people to enter, and if they saw footsteps that were exiting they would kill the inner guards for allowing people to leave. Rabbi Yehoshua reversed his sandal so it was facing away from the entrance, walked on the sand, and snuck away, thereby creating the appearance of someone who had left the building. When the authorities saw the footsteps, they killed the inner guards. Rabbi Yehoshua then returned, reversed his sandal, and made footsteps in the sand indicating that someone had entered the building. They then killed all the guards, including the outer ones, and Rabbi Yehoshua succeeded in entering the building.”

“Rabbi Yehoshua found the younger sages sitting in the upper, more prominent section, and the elder ones in the lower section. He said to himself: I must first greet the younger sages, as they are sitting in the upper section, prior to the elder sages; but if I greet these younger sages first, those elder sages will kill me, as they maintain: We are better, because we are older and they are children. Rabbi Yehoshua said: Greetings to you, but did not directly address either group. They said to him: What are you doing here? Rabbi Yehoshua said to them: I am a Sage of the Jews, and I desire to learn wisdom from you. They said to him: If so, we will ask you questions and see if you are worthy of this privilege. Rabbi Yehoshua said to them: Very well. If you win, you may do to me anything you wish, and if I defeat you, then eat with me on my ship.”

Commentary: The story of the butcher, the guards of the Elders’ lair, and their hierarchy have a common theme, which emerges even more strongly later. Rabbi Yehoshua turns their weapons against them. The butcher is forced by his words to give his head, and the guards end up being killed by the circumstantial evidence of the footprints. And he outwits their trap of hierarchy, of having the younger on top. Significantly, in Jewish law, circumstantial evidence is not enough for capital punishment (Sanhedrin 37b). The meaning of this is that he used their technical and legal rigidities in their thinking and morality to defeat them at their own game.

The debate begins:

“The sages of Athens said to him: In the case of a certain man who goes and asks to marry a woman and her family does not give her to him, why would he see fit to go to a family that is greater than the first? Rabbi Yehoshua took a peg and stuck it into the lower part of the wall, but it did not go in. He then stuck it into the upper portion of the wall where there was a hole, and it went in. He said to them: In this case too, where he goes to a more distinguished family than the first, perhaps he will find the girl destined for him.”

“The sages of Athens asked him another question: In the case of a man who lends money to an individual and the borrower does not repay the loan, and the lender repossesses the borrower’s property as payment instead, why would he see fit to lend to others again? Rabbi Yehoshua said to them: This is what people do: If a man goes to the pond, initially cuts a bundle of reeds, but finds that he cannot lift it, he does not stop cutting wood. Instead, he cuts more wood and places it upon the first, until a person happens to pass by and helps him raise it upon his shoulders, so that he can carry it home. So too, a person continues to lend based on the assumption that he will eventually find an appropriate borrower.”

Commentary: In this section, Rabbi Yehoshua shows them that though you can argue in some way with technical logic, practical reality does not always work that way. One plus one does not equal two in complex human and social situations. The peg might fit higher up on the wall; meaning, the woman might find this man from a lower status attractive for non-measurable subtleties. So too, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts and the man with several bundles might be more successful in recruiting his friends. The point is, cold logic does not take into account human dynamics that change perception and therefore reality, to say the least, aside from the potential for divine inspiration and intervention.

Now the debate takes a different turn. They reject Rabbi Yehoshua’s beliefs as false and fantastical. This is what they mean when they start discussing mules that give birth, salt that spoils, homes in the sky, holes that move, fields of knives and the like. They are telling him his unproven faith and beliefs are nonsense.

“The sages of Athens said to him: Say to us a matter of nonsense. Rabbi Yehoshua said to them: There was a certain mule that gave birth, and a note was hanging on the newborn mule’s neck and on it was written that it is owed 100,000 dinars by its father’s household. They said to him: But can a mule give birth? Rabbi Yehoshua said to them: This is why it is a matter of nonsense, as it is impossible for a mule to give birth.”

“The sages of Athens then asked another question: When salt is spoiling, with what does one salt it to preserve it? Rabbi Yehoshua said to them: With the placenta of a mule. They said to him: But is there a placenta of a mule? Rabbi Yehoshua said to them: And does salt spoil?”

“They said to him: Build us a house in the air of the world. Rabbi Yehoshua uttered a Name of God and hovered between the sky and the earth. He said to them: Bring up to me bricks and mortar and I will build you a house here. They asked him: Where is the center of the world? Rabbi Yehoshua raised his finger and said to them: Here. They said to him: And who says that you are correct? He said to them: Bring ropes and measure. They said to him: We have a pit in the field; bring it to the city. Rabbi Yehoshua said to them: Braid ropes made of bran for me and I will bring it to the city with them. They then said to him: We have a mill that broke; sew it back together. Rabbi Yehoshua said to them: Pull out threads from the mill for me and I will sew them together. They asked him another question: With what does one harvest a field of knives? Rabbi Yehoshua answered: With the horn of a donkey. They said to him: But is there such an item as a horn of a donkey? He said to them: But is there such a thing as a field of knives?”

“They brought him two eggs and said to him: Which is the egg of a black hen and which is the egg of a white hen? Rabbi Yehoshua brought them two cheeses, and said to them: Which is the cheese from the black goat and which is from the white goat?”

Commentary: Rabbi Yehoshua’s response to each of their challenges was to throw nonsense right back at them. “Use the placenta of a mule, pass me the bricks up to the sky, and where did the cheese come from?” Rabbi Yehoshua is saying you also start with certain assumptions and beliefs which are also arbitrary. Some things cannot be proven in logic alone, but are in a way, felt to be self-evident.

At this point the dialogue switches to another theological debate, the apparent unfairness and randomness of suffering in nature, as represented by the dead eggs and utensils that might cost more than they are worth, i.e., a life not worth living. And the conclusion the sages make is that there is no soul, life is not worth living, so either there is no God or He is most unjust.

“They asked him: And in the case of a chick that dies inside the egg, from where does its spirit exit? Rabbi Yehoshua said to them: From where it enters, it departs. They said to him: Show us a utensil that is not worth the damage that it causes. Rabbi Yehoshua said to them: Each one of you bring a mat and spread it out. When they did so, each mat did not enter the gate due to its size. Rabbi Yehoshua said to them: Bring axes and break the gate so that you can bring it inside. This is a utensil that is not worth its damage.”

Commentary: In these final aspects of the debate, the Elders assert that a dead chick has no soul because how does it get into the egg. They ask him to find a utensil that is not worth the damage it causes. They are saying that the apparent random suffering in nature shows a lack of justice in the world and a lack of Godly providence. The chick has no soul, and sometimes utensils do not have value.

Rabbi Yehoshua argues the soul goes out the way it goes in, so if there is life there is a soul. He also hints that certain lives might seem pointless, such as a life filled with suffering or a short-lived child, but it has to do with what is ultimately achieved upon the exit—through the gate—that is, the world to come. If it needs to be broken up into pieces (possibly hinting at gilgulim or other forms of unworthiness) in order to get through the gate, it may seem not worth it. Or the idea of breaking the utensils into pieces might hint at a collective value of a life for a higher purpose of the function of the world even if the individual utensil is broken.

Now as we enter the final stage on Daf 9, after Rabbi Yehoshua has bested them in the debate, he must trick them into coming back to the Emperor and seal their fate. This happens on a physical level as well as a metaphoric level, as we shall see.

“After Rabbi Yehoshua defeated the sages of Athens in debate, he brought them to his ship as they had agreed. He then brought each one to a different room. When each one saw the sixty mattresses in his room, he said to himself: All of my colleagues are coming here, and waited for them without attempting to leave. Rabbi Yehoshua said to the sailor: Release your ship, i.e., begin sailing. While they were coming to the emperor in Rome, he took out some dirt that he had taken from the dirt of Athens. When they reached the House of the Swallowed, a location in the sea where the water absorbs everything in its vicinity, Rabbi Yehoshua ben Ḥananya filled up a small jug of water from the House of the Swallowed. When they arrived, he presented the sages of Athens before the emperor. The emperor saw that the sages of Athens were suffering due to their having been taken captive. He said to Rabbi Yehoshua: These individuals cannot be the sages of Athens, because those sages are strong and arrogant. Rabbi Yehoshua took some of the dirt that he had taken from Athens and threw it upon them. When they smelled the scent of their own soil they began to act like themselves again, and they spoke with arrogance before the king. Upon hearing them, the emperor said to Rabbi Yehoshua: You may do with them whatever you wish. Rabbi Yehoshua brought the water that he had brought from the House of the Swallowed and poured it into a utensil [betigada]. He said to the sages: Fill it up and go on your way. They filled and poured one by one, i.e., they filled the utensil by pouring in water numerous times, and each time the utensil swallowed up the water. They continued to fill it until their shoulders became disjointed. In this manner, the sages of Athens were defeated.”

Commentary: How did Rabbi Yehoshua trick the sages to stay in the boat? Because they saw the other mattresses, they thought their friends were soon to come. I believe this hints at being influenced by peers. They thought they were totally rational and logical, but they were defeated because they were not as rational and logical as they believed; in fact, they were influenced by the need for approval of their peers and status, represented by expecting them to join them on the ship as well as the earth of their hometown.

Then they become worn out, trying to fill a bucket of water that can never be filled. That hints at the futility of their actions. They don’t believe in a reward or the world to come so they work and work for ideas that they constructed. It looks like it’s something substantial, but in the end they don’t get anywhere.